Perhaps what we call depression isn’t really a disorder at all but, like physical pain, an alarm of sorts, alerting us that something is undoubtedly wrong; that perhaps it is time to stop, take a time-out, take as long as it takes, and attend to the unaddressed business of filling our souls – Dr. Jonathan Rottenberg
In this episode, we explore the human mood system and the origin of depression. Rather than viewing depression as a personal failing, we explore how it’s rooted in the very systems that helped us survive. It’s an interesting conversation about how these ancient mood-regulation mechanisms, which once served us well, now collide with the complexities of modern life—and what that clash means for our mental health today.
My guest is Dr. Jonathan Rottenberg. Jonathan is a Professor of Psychology and Director of the Better Outcomes Laboratory. His work examines long-term functioning and well-being after depression and related conditions, with a particular focus on explaining why some people achieve good outcomes. He received his BA from Harvard University, an MA in History from Johns Hopkins University, and his PhD in Psychology from Stanford University.
Dr. Rottenberg’s research has been covered in popular outlets such as the New York Times, The Washington Post, and the Wall Street Journal, and he has authored two books: The Depths: The Evolutionary Origins of the Depression Epidemic (Basic Books) and Depression: What Everyone Needs to Know (Oxford). His most recent digital outreach project is Ever After, a video series about life after depression.
Some highlights in the pod:
- Jonathan’s own experience with depression and how it shaped his research and mission
- Evolution and the mood system
- How “low mood” is rooted in the same system that drives joy and energy
- Why depression’s survival strategy is mismatched with modern stressors
- The difference between ordinary sadness and depression
- Why depression feels permanent
- The role of rumination in relapses and how it wires the brain for recurring episodes
- The adaptability and resilience of the mood system
- How mindfulness techniques can disrupt depressive thought loops
- Why some people achieve ‘better outcomes’ after struggling with their mental health
I think the episode will help many of you see depression and overall negative moods as part of a broader human experience rather than a personal failing.
Enjoy!
Resources / Links
- Cornell profile: Jonathan Rottenberg
- Better Outcomes Laboratory
- Books page: amazon.com/stores/Jonathan-Rottenberg/author
